dlnb:
risen: any reason youre not using dos and looking into calyx/los?
Borked on your device?
Nov 26 14:54
SkewedZeppelin:
dlnb: risen has multiple devices on each OS
Nov 26 15:01
dlnb:
Expensive hobby haha
Nov 26 15:03
SkewedZeppelin:
strcat
risen has always been open and accepting of what is true or not, even if they don't necessarily agree with it.
their snarky jokes are just that: jokes, they aren't personal, nor would I consider them toxic or bullying
nor is GrapheneOS a target for them, you can see this same/equal level of snark in response to *many* other projects if you read their messages in full/with context
that is just their humor
fun fact: risen was actually the first user in this chat room, nearly two years ago
it was maybe over a month before anyone else joined
risen has furthermore gone out of their way to support this project, both with their time (answering questions, helping users, correcting misinformation) plus many hundred dollars in donations (along with donations to various other projects)
Nov 26 15:13
restive_monk:
SkewedZeppelin: I was trying to say the samething, but thought it is not my place to do so. Also many in these room don't have pixel devices. This is a different set of audience. And you have made it very clear in the room that Graphene tops everything. If one can buy pixel then Pixel on Graphene is what one should go far. Risen is just a funny guy. Incidentally only yeaterdat that I said that here. But strcat seems pissed for sure. But I can tell for sure his project is not discredited in this room for sure. The audience group is different and everyone understands they are just jokes.
Nov 26 15:19
akc3n:
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> akc3n
> > I'll deal with you soon...
>
> regardless of intention, this statement just comes off unnecessarily threatening
My initial intention was to include these copied comments by risen in my reply:
> List 10 false "claims" I stated.
> A brief list of 10?
I redacted it shortly afterwards on the matrix side when realizing how it may sound to others. By that time, I no longer had them in the buffer and felt it was simpler for me to redact rather than backlogging rooms chat history to find, copy, edit my comment, and paste them in.
Tl;Dr:
I only meant that I would fulfill risens demands for 10 examples to be listed.
> I'll deal with you soon
Nov 26 16:19
SkewedZeppelin:
thanks for the clarification
~there is 18 days of backlog in MAM right now
Nov 26 16:21
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> OK. From now on, if someone asks about Gos, I'll just say: I tried it. It was good security AFAIK, but had a couple cosmetic things and a slightly slower update than Dos. I switched to (LineageOS or CalyxOS, haven't decided), because strcat called me a bunch of names and accused me of a bunch of dishonesty, with no valid reason. Because of that, I can't believe anything bad or good he says about the other projects either. Good?
any time you lie about GrapheneOS or myself in this room or elsewhere there will be an increasingly active response to it
you've continue doing that
Nov 26 21:41
you've continued doing that
Nov 26 21:41
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> strcat
>
> risen has always been open and accepting of what is true or not, even if they don't necessarily agree with it.
>
> their snarky jokes are just that: jokes, they aren't personal, nor would I consider them toxic or bullying
>
> nor is GrapheneOS a target for them, you can see this same/equal level of snark in response to *many* other projects if you read their messages in full/with context
> that is just their humor
>
> fun fact: risen was actually the first user in this chat room, nearly two years ago
> it was maybe over a month before anyone else joined
>
> risen has furthermore gone out of their way to support this project, both with their time (answering questions, helping users, correcting misinformation) plus many hundred dollars in donations (along with donations to various other projects)
they've repeatedly been incredibly dishonest and directed personal attacks towards me for weeks/months
it reflects on this room / community and your project that they were free to do that barely being challenged about it
Nov 26 21:42
SkewedZeppelin:
I disagree
And I don't care to argue semantics
Nov 26 21:45
SkewedZeppelin:
I don't see any personal attacks either
You're welcome to correct any misinformation you see
Nov 26 21:46
strcat:
they've repeatedly made personal attacks against me, and they continue doing it
they blatantly lie about what I've said and done
Nov 26 21:46
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> And dark mode _just works_ in default apps!
not that you would care but Contacts has dark mode in GrapheneOS with a few more bug fixes for that than elsewhere (still not a very good dark mode) so the only thing without it is Messaging (which for similar reasons we cannot just take patches from elsewhere without fixing them when it breaks accessibility, etc.)
Nov 26 21:47
risen:
Is this a bad time to ask for a reminder of how to block messages from a user?
Nov 26 21:48
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_restive_monk=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> SkewedZeppelin: I was trying to say the samething, but thought it is not my place to do so. Also many in these room don't have pixel devices. This is a different set of audience. And you have made it very clear in the room that Graphene tops everything. If one can buy pixel then Pixel on Graphene is what one should go far. Risen is just a funny guy. Incidentally only yeaterdat that I said that here. But strcat seems pissed for sure. But I can tell for sure his project is not discredited in this room for sure. The audience group is different and everyone understands they are just jokes.
what he is doing is not joking but rather repeatedly lying about GrapheneOS and myself in this room, and a lot of people do not realize what he is doing and lying, misrepresenting and spinning things
it's not a joke
it's actively malicious and harmful behavior
as I said, behavior that reflects on everyone simply thinking it's fine, funny, or whatever else
Nov 26 21:49
there is an extreme bullying campaign targeting me across different platform which I'm sure many of you have seen: the people who repeatedly call me insane, delusional, crazy and fabricate endless stories about me, and risen has played a part in that here
Nov 26 21:50
it was not me who noticed their behavior here but rather about a dozen people who contacted me about it over time and eventually one showed a screenshot that was extremely blatant, where SkewedZeppelin was participating, and I came here to debunk the attacks
Nov 26 21:51
risen:
> strcat:
> there is an extreme bullying campaign targeting me across different platform which I'm sure many of you have seen: the people who repeatedly call me insane, delusional, crazy and fabricate endless stories about me, and risen has played a part in that here
I have seen you say this over and over, but I've seen no evidence of it.
Nov 26 21:51
strcat:
do you think that it's helpful for the privacy community to be a toxic wasteland full of malicious people / trolls burning down everything and wasting time?
Nov 26 21:51
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> > strcat:
> > there is an extreme bullying campaign targeting me across different platform which I'm sure many of you have seen: the people who repeatedly call me insane, delusional, crazy and fabricate endless stories about me, and risen has played a part in that here
> I have seen you say this over and over, but I've seen no evidence of it.
most people here who have read threads mentioning GrapheneOS across different platforms have seen it
Nov 26 21:52
SkewedZeppelin:
> the people who repeatedly call me insane, delusional, crazy and fabricate endless stories about me, and risen has played a part in that here
None of that has happened here
Nov 26 21:52
strcat:
I have posted threads on Twitter with screenshots of Calyx employees/associates directly participating in it
Nov 26 21:52
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> > the people who repeatedly call me insane, delusional, crazy and fabricate endless stories about me, and risen has played a part in that here
>
> None of that has happened here
yes it has, just in risen's usually more subtle way where he lies about what I've said and done
Nov 26 21:52
sometimes less subtle
Nov 26 21:53
it seems pretty clear that as long as risen is here, they're going to be making those attacks over and over, and therefore it creates an endless conflict that will be ongoing
one which will easily spill outside this room
atm the GrapheneOS community has no awareness of this beyond people who also use DivestOS and are here
Nov 26 21:53
SkewedZeppelin:
> do you think that it's helpful for the privacy community to be a toxic wasteland full of malicious people / trolls burning down everything and wasting time?
I sure hope you aren't implying this chat room is a toxic wasteland, because it very much is not
Nov 26 21:56
I am happy to correct people but I have no right to take their opinions from them
Nor does anyone else
Nov 26 21:57
strcat:
it is when risen is always joining each convo with attacks / jabs at GrapheneOS based on misrepresentations / false claims
Nov 26 21:57
SkewedZeppelin:
I'll agree that some of risen's comments are unnecessarily instigating
But they still are not personal attacks
Nov 26 21:58
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> ofc through no fault of Gos, but because F-droid did something wrong. Lol
looking through this they're pretty much just always coming up with endless fabrications and baseless attacks
Nov 26 22:00
risen:
What strcat is doing _is_ primarily personal attacks.
Nov 26 22:00
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> But they still are not personal attacks
they have made personal attacks repeatedly within the past days
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> What strcat is doing _is_ primarily personal attacks.
calling you out for spending months lying about GrapheneOS here is calling out behavior
that is what you have been doing and at least several other people have agreed you are doing that who have more experience with it than I do
Nov 26 22:00
SkewedZeppelin:
You can find those exact same style of comments in regards to many other projects including this one
Nov 26 22:01
Instread you're singling out the GrapheneOS ones and calling it a personal attack
Nov 26 22:02
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> Instread you're singling out the GrapheneOS ones and calling it a personal attack
directly making claims about me as an individual is a personal attack
making false claims about what I've said and done, which risen has been doing at least since I joined here, and before based on searching for it
Nov 26 22:04
> <@_xmpp_risen=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> The history of difficulty working with others goes back to their Arch days IIUC, so it's fundamental.
do you want me to go back and highlight about 40 cases where they engage in spreading fabricated stories and other personal attacks?
Nov 26 22:11
SkewedZeppelin:
Wed Oct 26 09:30:44 AM UTC 2022
> You, Chirayu, and Micay go into a bar. Too funny. Where is Chirayu, do you know?
Wed Oct 26 09:52:51 AM UTC 2022
> Did you ever actually speak with Micay?
Fri Nov 18 01:04:37 PM UTC 2022
> Gos / Micay et al said a lot of stuff about F-droid, and spent a lot of time making Google apps work.
those are the only 3 messages I have where risen mentioned you
across my local MAM
if you have something more egregious please post it
Nov 26 22:11
strcat:
they've rarely said my name that way
Nov 26 22:13
risen quote self:
> risen:
> Daniel, I want _nothing_ to do with you in private. I have no desire to harm you or Gos. To be brutally honest, this kind of behavior of yours does more harm than you seem to understand.
Nov 26 22:13
SkewedZeppelin:
I checked for micay/thestinger/strcat/daniel across the 3 copies I have of my dino.db
Nov 26 22:13
There are no personal attacks here on you, members of your project, or members of other projects
Comments on projects and companies as a whole are completely on-base as long as they aren't wrong or corrected shortly after, assuming such a message is even worth correcting
Nov 26 22:15
strcat:
I just showed a personal attack
Nov 26 22:16
SkewedZeppelin:
anytime I mention single out a person of another project it is only ever in prasie
Nov 26 22:16
I personally would not consider the difficulty statement a personal attack
Nov 26 22:16
but I don't share it in agreeement
Nov 26 22:17
here in the full quote in context:
46and2
> Curious: why you could not trust Gos (...is great?) ?
risen
> Too many inconsistencies in their story. No meat behind blaming Copperhead implosion on the partner. Too many conflicts with other projects, and it's _always_ someone else's fault. No apparent underlying philosophy or goals....> Curious why you could not trust Gos (...is great?) ?
here in the full quote in context:
46and2
> Curious: why you could not trust Gos (...is great?) ?
risen
> Too many inconsistencies in their story. No meat behind blaming Copperhead implosion on the partner. Too many conflicts with other projects, and it's _always_ someone else's fault. No apparent underlying philosophy or goals....
Nov 26 22:20
that is their opinion, right or wrong
it is based on what they observe, believe, and percieve
Nov 26 22:21
genuinely if you want to correct misinformation and misunderstandings it may be better to document these topics in a singular place with a coherent timeline and sources behind it instead of always singling out people on every medium
Nov 26 22:23
strcat:
if they're doing it here, I will respond here going forward
Nov 26 22:23
SkewedZeppelin:
that is understandably however no small feat
Nov 26 22:23
strcat, like I said, you're welcome to correct misinformation here
Nov 26 22:24
kindly don't make it the topic of the room, because it isn't at the end of the day
Nov 26 22:25
strcat:
and btw just to set the record straight about several other things I see in the scrollback: Nicolas Merrill worked with Copperhead, where Chirayu Desai was employed near the end but mostly didn't work on what's now GrapheneOS because James was focused on fulfilling stuff like a Raytheon contract and figuring out how to push me out and take over my project
Nov 26 22:26
SkewedZeppelin:
I am aware of that
I remember back in the oftc room in 2015 that cde was there before there was really a comapny
Nov 26 22:26
strcat:
> <@_xmpp_SkewedZeppelin=2fdivestos-mobile=40conference.konvers.me:matrix.org> I remember back in the oftc room in 2015 that cde was there before there was really a comapny
he wasn't part of it then
Nov 26 22:27
SkewedZeppelin:
he was in there afair
strcat:
he was part of it around 2018, for a few months
SkewedZeppelin:
but not a part of it
strcat:
he might have been there but wasn't a contributor
SkewedZeppelin:
yep
strcat:
they were a crucial part of the takeover attempt on GrapheneOS (then CopperheadOS) by James Donaldson, and when that didn't work out Chirayu was hired by Calyx and they made CalyxOS by taking all the baseline non-hardening-related GrapheneOS stuff (vendor handling, carrier handling, build scripts, build docs, etc.)
James would not have tried to do that without cde there working for him primarily and not doing much on the open source OS project
Nov 26 22:27
SkewedZeppelin:
yep, I remember their website sat a year in disgrace with some over the wall builds
Nov 26 22:28
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